Curse

rohara · May 09, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

i think it will be a tad annoying, at least at first. there certainly is a feel to how you play. pvp and pve are already played differently enough without mucking about with the skills.

i also worry that anet will use this as an excuse to nerf the living crap out of pvp-versions of skills and turn every gvg match into a half-hour long plinkfest that bores everyone to death. and on the flipside, buff pve-versions of skills so much that they are just ridiculous. maybe i'm a cynic, but honestly, from their track record...i would not be surprised.

drastically changing a game 3 years in just isn't a great idea, imo - whether its a good change or not. i doubt many people want to "re-learn" how to play at this point.

PlasticBlue · May 09, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I don't get it... read a zillion posts of people wanting skills separated for pve and pvp.
So A-net does as asked, and again people start nagging...

Not sure if it's a good idea though... we'll see what it brings. We'll get used to it after a while, I guess.

horseradish · May 09, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Can't wait to see the skill changes!

-Pluto- · May 10, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Fact: 99% of the GW population has no clue what they're doing. They'll go to RA with their 300 damage flare and finds it only does 30 damage now.

That's what i worry about. The guys in RA that just enter with their pve build are already going in at a pretty big disadvantage by having bars ill-suited for pvp. Now they're going to have bars ill-suited for pvp with a chance to have their skills made weaker on top of that. It could end up just making pvp too much of a different game for casual players to bother doing. This is already a problem (RA can be a pretty brutal environment for casual players as it is). Now it just gets amplified.

Age · May 10, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I do imagine this is for GW 2 although they could but out 2 skill sets.holy might want to resign from The Campfire.

RotteN · May 10, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I don't play PvE with "feel", i'm usually not even paying attention when i PvE, so i see no real issue there.

Though i do agree that splitting them up is somewhat stupid since it'll make the gap PvE-ers have to cross to start PvPing even bigger.

Leetwalrushunter · May 10, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

When guild was came out everyone was supposed to PvP, they didnt and know we have people who play PvE who think they are good

yum · May 10, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

This is my dream coming true. WTH are you complaining about?

I Angra I · May 10, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

If they actually put effort into really nice skill balances for PvP now I'll be happy with it. If they still don't do anything about fixing PvP/GvG, it's just a huge waste of time for them to even do this.

I don't really see the point of them catering to the PvE people who are whining just because their Searing Flames doesn't do 9001 damage and how they can't have 200 minions, but I'm not really too affected by it anyway for the most part so it doesn't really bother me. I PvE every once in awhile and tbh making it even easier than it is now is just going to make it even more boring.

Asplode · May 10, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Basically what Divine is complaining about isn't that skills in PvE should be nerfed, like how people are taking it, but rather that this is a complete abandonment of the PvE <-> PvP transition that GW is supposed to be about. It's a cut and run approach to balance which forfeits overpowered skills in PvP to be used in PvE because ArenaNet is afraid of dealing with people complaining about it.

I'm going to be honest here and say that this is the easy answer, but once again, inevitable considering the reactions you see people make (Here, or otherwise) when a skill or skill combo is duly nerfed, because they are overpowered and not because ArenaNet has a personal grudge against your stupid Margonite-farming build.

Ben-A-BoO · May 10, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Fact: 99% of the GW population has no clue what they're doing.

Here he goes again - sigh -

I see this more of a test run for GW2 then anything else.
However I share the concerns of Divine ... it's either or ... and I liked to feel at home at both of the worlds.

We'll see how largely this will take effect.

Joseph Leito · May 10, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Why does PvE have to be better or worse than PvP? They're completely different experiences. I play both on a regular basis, and I enjoy them both equally.

Jenn · May 10, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

...it may seem cool and great, but is this worth their time?

Honestly? I'd have to say no. While I think it's neat that they're doing this, I don't think the current PvE situation is at a loss of aids that help simplify the content (i.e. PvE only skills and consumbles).

I do like the update though, and I'm not going to dance around the reason why:
I CAN KILL STUFF FASTER (presumably, depending what the skill changes are like).

Once you've got the "finesse" part of PvE down, the only thing that's really left is speed, and if I can find a way to speed it up, I think that's an advantage I should take. I already know to use terrain to avoid pewpew, I kite, I preprot, I don't need Ursan, I don't stand in AoE, I don't need to wiki every piece of information. To be honest, I'd like to think I'm fairly proficient at playing better than the average.. PuG? But honestly, if I can pew pew harder, I'd like to. Having said that, I realize for the majority of the GW population, this will negate some need for learning. I haven't thought of a good compromise.

My fear with this update is that it will make PvE imba (okay, aside from already existing Ursan blessing). I don't want my Rodgort's Invocation to be silly and do 200 damage, but maybe I WOULD like my farming build to be unnerfed. I think "unreasonable" nerfs for PvE should be reverted, like Watch Yourself! I know blockway and stuff like that REALLY sucked for PvP, and it sucks that people abused it, but I'd rather have a WY! than the PvE equivalent of SY!.

I hope that aNet is smart with this. I think it CAN work without creating too big of a disparity between PvE and PvP. If they don't go overboard and buff everything to the equivalent of Ursan, I think we'll be okay.

I don't think it's as bad as it seems. At least I hope it isn't because PvE doesn't need it. It's just a bonus. But yeah, your question. No, not really worth it. People have already adapted with most nerfs.

Trub · May 10, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Arkantos QQing would never have the same effect! I am strong PvE!

<3 Div....a battle lion in munks clothing.

Riotgear · May 10, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

It may be about "feel" but the "feel" of everything has been changing ever since they introduced PvE skills, and playing ANY class in PvP is quite different from PvE. (Feels like Ursan Blessing most of the time, LULZ). They could have introduced PvE variants that were better than the PvP versions and it would have been the exact same result.

So... why is this being complained about? I thought this is exactly what everyone wanted, a way to stop PvE considerations from screwing up PvP balance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

I don't think it's as bad as it seems. At least I hope it isn't because PvE doesn't need it. It's just a bonus. But yeah, your question. No, not really worth it. People have already adapted with most nerfs.

I'd question whether the PvE crowd actually wants balance, considering the massive uproar every time builds that solo areas designed for 8 people are nerfed, and the repeated parroting of the "nerfs bad, buffs good" mentality.

I'm pretty sure they don't, they just want to grind out the goodies and don't want the balance process making it harder for them. It's not about balance, it's about not getting nerfed. People see their characters as an investment and they don't want to lose that investment. This is obviously also less important in PvP because individual characters are irrelevant, you can change classes, builds, equipment, or whatever else whenever you want.

Ursan's kind of an exception because it's inexcusably broken and boned everyone that didn't buy EOTN.

Now, the important thing to consider here is that balance isn't really the objective, keeping the players happy is. If players like playing with imbalanced crap because it benefits them, then there isn't really any reason to adjust it. The problem is that the PvE crowd wants to play with imbalanced crap and the PvP crowd doesn't because they wind up being on the receiving end of it too. Most MMOs figured this out a while ago with their PvP implementations, unfortunately Guild Wars didn't really figure it out until recently.

Makkert · May 10, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Divine:

wouldn't a simple solution be to play a completely different profession in PvE then you normally do in PvP then? This way, it wouldn't mess up your feel too bad, no? I know, still a bit icky.... just shooting out ideas.

I think we have yet to see how often ANet will use this new skillbalancing system. They already mentioned they will use this system sparingly/ defensive.
Prime candidate are probably passive skills. If the changes lead to it that these skills become unviable in PvP, then we just have a PvE skill and a PvP skill that nobody cares about.

~ Makk.

snaek · May 10, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Now, the important thing to consider here is that balance isn't really the objective, keeping the players happy is. If players like playing with imbalanced crap because it benefits them, then there isn't really any reason to adjust it. The problem is that the PvE crowd wants to play with imbalanced crap and the PvP crowd doesn't because they wind up being on the receiving end of it too. Most MMOs figured this out a while ago with their PvP implementations, unfortunately Guild Wars didn't really figure it out until recently.

ummmm...its all bout balance
at least it better be

and its not that ppl like to play with imbalanced crap
its that they dun want to play with gimp'd crap
do ppl not use blood magic cuz they hate it?
no, its cuz curse/death is much better

this update is meant to give ppl more options

and most other mmo's dun care bout pvp as much
therefore, they dun care bout balance as much

Daenara · May 10, 2008, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It may be about "feel" but the "feel" of everything has been changing ever since they introduced PvE skills, and playing ANY class in PvP is quite different from PvE.

I think the "Feel" that Divine is talking about is when you press a button, you expect that red bar to go up to a certain spot, and if that spot is different depending on whether it's pve or pvp, it will make things confusing... MIRite?

And yes, I agree, I think having separate skills will make transitioning from PvE to PvP more difficult. I don't really understand where Anet is going with all of this, but I don't envy them, they're going to get QQ no matter what they do.

C2K · May 10, 2008, 05:06 AM // 05:06

I totally agree with the OP and this is just another "jump the shark" moment in Guild Wars' short history.

Riotgear · May 10, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

ummmm...its all bout balance
at least it better be

and its not that ppl like to play with imbalanced crap
its that they dun want to play with gimp'd crap
do ppl not use blood magic cuz they hate it?
no, its cuz curse/death is much better

Except they generally don't care. Nobody really cares if Blood or Water or whatever other underappreciated lines become viable because it doesn't matter, the only thing they're concerned with is making sure that the stuff they sunk their time into stays viable. If it was about maintaining a decent balance of effort/reward, then binding every key to Animate Bone Fiend, Blood of the Master, and Heal Area and rolling your face on the keyboard would not be nearly as effective as it is.

Again, it's not about balance, it's about PRESERVING INVESTMENT. Why do you think the PvE crowd is constantly opposed to nerfing of any kind, including things like farming builds which are by definition overpowered? Why do you never hear the PvE crowd complaining about some gimmick being too effective? Simple, they WANT overpowered gimmicks, it's what makes the game fun to them.

Quote:

and most other mmo's dun care bout pvp as much

That's because most other MMOs ship with PvP as an afterthought at best and nonexistent at worst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daenara

And yes, I agree, I think having separate skills will make transitioning from PvE to PvP more difficult. I don't really understand where Anet is going with all of this, but I don't envy them, they're going to get QQ no matter what they do.

The general dynamic of things is completely different, that's a far bigger obstacle than the subtleties of individual skill behavior. The transition from PvE to PvP has never been much of one for that very reason, the experience translates very poorly and it basically means starting PvP with a basic knowledge of the game mechanics, and that's it.

Making PvP approachable isn't about transition, it's about learning curve, or at the very least, shielding inexperienced players from the experts, both of which are things that apply to everybody, not just the PvE playerbase. The learning curve has been extremely harsh for a long time, and the time to fix that was a long time ago, probably around the time the "rank discrimination" bitching started.